- Hey guys, welcome to another episode of "Double Tap" on YouTube. Shaun Preece, they must have liked the video because we're back. - It's your own fault. Don't like it and we won't come back. - That's it, exactly. That's how it works around here. That's, at least, what Mr. F tells me anyway. - I believe that's against YouTube rules saying please don't like and unsubscribe from our video, thank you. Don't do that, please. - It's funny, a lot of people I have heard, you know, and my company, have used the word unsubscribe a lot. I dunno what that's to tell me. Listen, we promised you Michael Babcock would come back. He is back with us. Michael, back with us again. Hello. Hang on. Yes, must applaud. - Hello. - Hello. Thanks for having me back again. And that, did you guys remember that they took the amount of dislikes away on YouTube video? So it used to show you how many likes and how many dislikes. Now it just shows you how many likes are on a video. - That's great, isn't it? - That's positive. Yeah. - Yes. That was Steven's idea. Once he saw the numbers. He thought, hang on. - I don't know, actually no, that's not my kinda way of doing things. I'd much rather see the dislike number. I'd be like, because I feel that that number's gonna be a lot higher in our videos. I dunno, I'm just guessing. I'm not gonna say I've looked at our Apple Podcast rating, but let's just, let's just move on. Okay. So Michael, I want to talk to you because when you were at CSUN, one of the companies you got a chance to catch up with was Sony. And you and I had spoken before the event because basically, even though you were going there purely, purely for your own purposes, you had people like me constantly getting in touch saying, "Hey, could you talk to this company?" And, "Hey, could you talk to that company?" And if you happened to be popping by this company, this could be a good subject to discuss. But one area that was of course interesting for me was their new accessible camera, or at least the accessible camera they've been talking about for a while. Two cameras actually, isn't it? Because there's one which is about, I guess making it easier for someone with low vision to be able to see what pictures they're taking. But the other one was, or it was including, a screen reader and some magnification. So maybe let's start there. Did you get a chance to play with this? - I did. And I don't remember the exact model number because you know, it's Sony, so their model numbers are not short at all. - No. - But it was kind of interesting. So I am not a person who does a lot with photography, but what was demonstrated to me is the buttons all felt different. So you would know what button you're pressing because of the way that it felt when you were pressing it. They used a version of TalkBack that was on the camera because they were Android based and allowed you to navigate the camera and get information about what focus mode you have the camera in, or information about the lens, or it even would tell you how the, it didn't give you what the photos look like and give you how many people were in the photo. But they did do that with their Sony phones and they said that that information is coming to some of their cameras. What was really interesting, apparently, last or two years ago, everything or nothing would read it would just tell you if accessibility was on or accessibility was on. Last year, the accessibility menu would read and it would let you read that. But it was very difficult to navigate other places. This year, the accessibility menu and all the main settings were accessible, but when you actually went into the camera tool itself, it didn't give you feedback based on how many faces were in view. And the gentleman I talked to said, "We're just progressively making this a better experience." And what I thought was really interesting is because it's progressively making a better experience, they're getting feedback from people who are actually using these cameras in the wild to say, "Hey, you know, maybe I don't need to hear this information. Is there a way you can make that be a click or some other form of audible feedback?" So if I want to take a picture, I'm not disturbed by the words that are being spoken to me by the camera. You can plug in a headphone or a speaker in order to make that a better experience. Or it will just talk right on the camera itself. - I was gonna say that wouldn't work very well. Wouldn't it. You finally got that picture of that deer you've been hunting all season. - Yeah. - And then your camera says aperture five and the deer just disappears off into the wild. Oh, well nevermind. - So... - Hang on, hang on. I wanna jump in here quickly about this. Well, we started off and it would just say if accessibility was on or off, but that was the accessibility feature. Then it would just read this menu but no other menu the next year. That's all fine. Yes, I get it. It's evolving and they're learning and fantastic. But is that a new camera every time? Or is the software simply being updated via a firmware update and hey, now we're getting a better service? Or is it a case, well, you need this latest hardware to actually have the better accessibility? - That's a very good question that I don't have an answer for. So if anyone from Sony is listening, let's hear that. I suspect though, because these cameras are not cheap, they're not your 200, $300 cameras. I think the one that I was looking at was 22 to $2,400 minus the lens, which was another $1,000 that they recommended. So you're looking at 33 to $3,500 for a decent camera setup. So I suspect this is software updates, but I could be wrong on that. - I think you're right though, I think Michael. It is software updates because you're right, these cameras are expensive. I'm sitting here in front of, I think, one of the models that they're talking about. I need to get this confirmed from Sony, but I have the A7C camera, which is, it has been out now for a little while. It's a fantastic camera. I'm benefiting here on YouTube with this amazing camera because of our TV show Access Tech Live. So I get the benefit of using this wonderful camera on here. But these cameras are software updateable and I'd be really keen to know if this is something that's available. Of course, it can also be country specific as well. We're seeing that as a bit of an issue at the minute. So it might be US only for a while until they develop it further and then it'll roll out. But I think it is good to hear this kind of technology is coming out and it is rolling out, but it just sometimes feels a bit too slow compared to if you look at Android, if you look at Apple and what they're doing with their cameras. If I'm blind and I wanna take a picture, I'm reaching for my smartphone. So, even with these cameras, and I know there's people, I know there's lots of people, I can think about James Wrath who comes on here with us regularly, and he's a great guy. He wants to use something like this. He's not gonna make a film with an iPhone. He probably could, but he would much rather use the kind of technology that all the other professionals are using. Yeah, but look, I don't wanna focus too much on that today. I wanna talk to you a little bit about the dog. - Oh no, please. - Yeah. So for those of you who listen in to the show where Michael was on and we, we touched on this, I kind of wished at that point we had more time to talk about it, and I thought, well I know a way we've got oodles of time, YouTube. So let's go on and wax lyrical about this dog. Ibo, I think, or Aibo. But I think Aibo is how you pronounce it. - Yeah. This is a dog that is... - It's not a dog. - That's not a dog. Exactly. It's a dog, that's not a dog. It's a dog that has a plug. In Scotland, we'd see a dog with a plug. And I think that is exactly what this is. Right? So tell us first off, for those who missed the episode of what it was that you got hands on with. - Well, I don't know if was... - And your fingers bit with. - Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it has a plug or if it wirelessly charges. Maybe when it goes and lays down on his bed, it charges I should, I should look into that. So the... - I wanna ask where the USB socket is. - So the robotic dog, that I played with, with Sony, I was standing listening to someone demonstrate the accessible TVs that Sony has and some of the accessibility improvements that they have. And I heard this weird noise off to my left and it, I reached my hand over. 'Cause you know, as a blind person at a conference, you gotta put your hands on everything. - Yes. - And I'm like, oh, this is what it is. It's this weird thing that's moving around. And someone came by and said, "Oh, that's Aibo." And I'm like, "Okay, what is Aibo? I've never heard of that." And he said, "It's a robotic dog that you can let do its own thing." So it feels about the size of a small Labrador puppy. It has no fur. So that's the first weird thing. There are different textures. - Hang on, hang on. Well, hang on. You're saying it's weird that it doesn't have fur wouldn't it be weird, more weird, if it did have fur, that would cross a line, wouldn't it? - I don't know, actually, because... - No, it wouldn't cross a line. That would be right. - It would be more cuddly then. - Yeah. - You might want to be... Yeah. - Cuddly? It's made of plastic and got components in them. - Exactly, right now it's made of plastic. Why don't you... Yeah, anyways, didn't have fur. It did have sensors all over its body though. So if you scratched its, behind its ears, which is a weird feeling scratching plastic. But if you scratch behind its ears, it will, if it liked that will give you positive reinforcement. The tail does wag and if you rub it under its chin, it's like, if you rub it under its chin and you stop for a minute because you're talking to the person, it might bite your finger and say, "Hey, no," like nip at your finger and say, "Hey, no, I liked that. Keep doing it." What's really cool about the Aibo is, it learns what you like. So for example, if you, if it does something. - Like eating Chicken - Hmm yeah, yeah. - Does it like that? - I wonder. - But it won't eat your chicken. - Excellent. Yes. Well it will only have chips. That's what it'll have. Chips. - Chips and fingers. - It's a robot dog, chips. Anyway, nevermind. - So it does have the ability to, if you call it a good dog, it'll keep doing the same behavior. If you tell no, then it's gonna stop doing that behavior. I came home and learned something that Steven apparently already knew. And that is, you can buy accessories for the dog as well to connect it. - You can get a bowl. You got a water bowl, you can get a food bowl for it. Oh, I've been pricing these up. - Yeah. And do you guys remember, on the show I called them Neopets. Do you remember Tamagotchi? - Tamagotchi's of course. - That's the one I remember yes. - Yes, yes. That's what I was thinking of. My wife corrected me after the show. So it's a lot like the Tamagotchi, but you actually have a physical animal in space that you can play with as well, or connected to the app and make friends with other dogs across the world. - Right. Stop, stop. This is absolutely ridiculous. What a total waste of time we're talking here. What are you on about? Why are you so interested in this, Steven? - I just, I think this is kind of where AI is going to start becoming potentially more interesting to me. I mean, right now it's like, okay, I can write a list of things or I can feed it an article and say, "Oh, tell me, five bullet points from this article." And that's all lovely and great. But you know, when AI starts building itself into this kind of technology so you can have an animal that kinda starts to get to know you and starts to, become friendly towards you and knows what you like and all this stuff, I think that could get interesting. Look, we've already talked on the show quite a lot about AI assistance and AI, I guess you would maybe call friends? - Companions. - Companions, yeah. I think about Call Annie for example, the app Call Annie. You know, what's the difference here apart from the fact that Annie can talk, I mean arguably the dog could probably talk as well if they wanted it to. - Is there any AI in this? Do we know that? Or is this simply just a set of certain, a limited pattern of routines? Is this powered by AI? Is there any sort of computer vision in there where it's looking at you, could recognize faces and voices. Do, do we know anything about this? - It's got, it's got AI in its name? - Has it? I-B-O? - Aibo. - I-B-O. IBO. - Oh, okay. Where's the A in IBO? - What? - I don't know. - A-I-B-O. - Oh, okay. - AIBO. - What does the BO stand for? - Good boy. - Okay. - Wow. - I don't know. Do I work for Sony all of a sudden. What you quizzing me for? - I suppose, this goes back then to a previous conversation that we've had about whether AI could actually be, is useful as a social companion. You know, my concerns about that, I don't know, we've seen this for the longest time with these robot dogs. Sony's robot dog has been about for decades, I believe. It's been out for a long time. I can just see it's got a limited set of functionality there that you are going to play out pretty soon. Does it really sort of change its patterns, change its behavior in a way that it does feel more than just a toy? Then we're talking something very interesting. But other than that, I just see this as the next Firby, Do you remember those? - Michael, what do you think? - I do remember those. I think I'm getting distracted by trying to find an answer to Shaun's question. And I was looking and there's software updates that are pushed to the dog. They pushed their last software update in October of 2023. So I think the answer to your question, Shaun, is yes, it can do different actions than just the basic actions that are available. One of the update notes that they have, is that AIBO shows more richer behavior when attached to the charging station. So I think that that with updates, the AIBO grows. Physically though, I don't think it's gonna grow, which could be discouraging. - Oh, thank goodness for that. No, that could be terrifying. - Yes, yes. At least it doesn't eat too. - Yeah, exactly. But no, look, I want, just hang on because I know you're getting wrapped up in the AIBO because that's what I'm talking about. But I'm kind of talking this more of a concept rather than so much as something a product. Because in this particular robot dog is about $3,000 almost. It's about $2,900. So it's, realistically people aren't gonna go out and buy these on mass at this stage. I think if they had priced these at two to even three or even $500, perhaps. But, but at the moment, at the price level, it's not gonna be going out of the door. This is, this is concept stuff and that's what I wanna talk about. I wonder if this is where we should be going with this kind of technology. Does this help people? Could this be good for people? I mean, there's already studies coming out saying, this kind of thing. I mean, we already know the value of pets. But the challenge is then you're having to have dogs in perhaps challenging environments. Maybe people who live at home who would love to have an animal but just could not look after one. - Yeah. - You can see some real benefits for this kind of thing, from a social point of view. - Yeah. So I have told a couple of people that maybe if you have cognitive challenges or you are someone who doesn't the responsibility of taking care of a dog, but you still want the companionship and the ability to have something that is yours, but you don't have to worry about taking it out. You don't have to worry about feeding it. Apparently it does have facial recognition so it can recognize that you are the person in the house and then come to you. And having that emotional attachment to something that recognizes you, and knows that you are the person that is in charge of that thing, can give someone who may struggle with attachment and being able to attach themselves to a animal, might find comfort in having a automated tool come up to it and say, "Hey," and wag its tail and be happy to see you. - Hmm. I'm not convinced, I'm really. - No you're not are you? - There's something about this artificial intelligent companionship that makes me uneasy and I can't put my finger on it. I think what I'm looking for is, something needs to have a personality or our pets, maybe it's a projected personality that we put on our pets, but every single dog out there has its own personality. And I'm not convinced yet that AI can actually develop as its own individual personality and not just a set of, okay, you've tickled its chin, so now it's going to do, routine A and then routine B. So I yeah, I know where you're going with it though, Steven and I do get your point as well, Michael, that maybe there is a companionship level when it comes to something like this as a cyber pet. - But is it your fear that we start to cross the line between, because I get it with pets, right? We all understand the connection. We've all had the connection. All three of us have had connection with animals. So, - Yes. - We know the impact they can have, when you lose a pet, for example, the impact that it can have on you because it's a real living thing. This is not a real living thing. Or is it? This is the question when it comes to AI, I think a serious question is gonna come at some point, about what is life? What is it in terms of its consciousness and its capability. - Wow. - I think that's very interesting. - Think let's sort out, I get the answer now. On this YouTube episode. - Yeah. This is absolutely the place we figure this one out. What is life? - What is life? Yeah. What is it? - Do you remember the Black Mirror episode where robot dogs took over the world and hunted us down like animals? - Yes. - Yes. - That's what I'm afraid of. - Okay. I think, that's, I do get the concern around the companionship aspect. I think there's a new social stigma that will come with this. - Yes. - The social stigma will be, oh, there's that guy or that girl who thinks they're talking to a real animal, but it's actually a robot pet. But that person has a real deep connection with that and it will be that unconditional love I guess, that you would get from the device that you wouldn't get or you would get with an animal, but perhaps that person can't look after an animal. I think that's what I'm getting at with this. - And some people, some people think that people who talk to their actual real pets, like that, have some sort of weird issue as well. They see that in the same way. I totally get. It just seems that, I think, we're nowhere near that level of sophistication when it comes to something like the AIBO, IBO, where it could be perceived and even form an emotional attachment to in that. But maybe I'm wrong. - Hey look, If people are out there, people are marrying skyscrapers and trees and whatever else, If that's what you want to do. There's people that do, I dunno, people on Facebook that tell me to do these things. It's been very interesting. Michael, thank you for coming back on to talk about it. This is a conversation we could have a lot of debate and discussion around it. I can't wait to hear your comments as well on this. Comment below, drop us an email, feedback@doubletaponair.com or you can call us on the old dog and bone. Get it, telephone. 1-877-803-4567. I've been told in my ear by the person who doesn't exist, that time is up. Michael, thank you so much for coming back on. - Thanks for having again. - Thanks, man. - Catch us for another Double Tap on YouTube soon. Goodbye. - Goodbye.