Steven Scott (00:03.026) Oh, hello. Let's not do that again. Shaun (00:04.302) HUEHUAH! Steven Scott (00:10.038) Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Double Tap on YouTube. And there's so much tech news flying around, but I want to stop for a minute. Sean Preece. Oh, by the way, hello, Sean Preece. Shaun (00:20.242) Hello! It's good to be here as Steven Scott. Thank you for the introduction. You forgot about me. No, it's fine. Okay. Steven Scott (00:23.046) Oh, thank you for doing that. No, I didn't forget about you. I'm just so used to talking to you that I forget that you're, it's like you're just always there. I just forget to tell everybody else that you're there. Shaun (00:32.748) I have no idea. Good. No, it's fine. Now what are you talking about? Steven Scott (00:38.826) Well, you know, like I said, lots of tech news flying around at the minute. We've got some big events happening. Yeah. But you know what today, I want to stop for a second. I want to stop things. Stop, stop the music, stop everything. Yeah, because I have something I want to say. Very important. Wanted to say this. And that is to the Android people. I want to talk right now to the Android people. No, no, hang on. I want to talk just to you. So if you if you are there. Shaun (00:42.992) Yes. Shaun (00:50.09) Relax, yes. Shaun (01:00.598) Oh no, please stop. Think about what you're doing. Steven Scott (01:07.298) have got an Android phone. You know that phone, it's not the Apple one. I want to say something to you. Shaun (01:16.773) Yes. Steven Scott (01:17.844) I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I've said. I'm sorry for speaking out about Talkback and saying things I've said about Talkback and making jibes and doing those reviews where I would talk about the phone and be like, yeah, it's not really an iPhone. I'm sorry. Today, I'm apologizing. Shaun (01:20.935) Wow. Shaun (01:45.755) I'm not going to say anything, I'm just going to leave that there. We're just going to drink that in for a second. Shaun (01:54.21) Why would this sudden turnaround, Stephen Scott, why do you feel the need to apologise now for your terrible jibes and bad jokes at Android's expense throughout the many years? Yes, yes. Steven Scott (02:03.566) heinous acts against Android people. Yes, the Android people have suffered enough. And I feel it is time for me to speak up. And I'll tell you why. Because in life, I use this phrase quite a lot, nothing's a problem until it happens to you. And I've been on social media recently, seeing people who are Windows users moving to Mac and complaining. Shaun (02:10.1) Hahahaha Steven Scott (02:33.146) endlessly about, oh, it's not like Windows and you can't do this and I don't like that. No, this is different. And those keyboard commands don't work. And oh, this is terrible. And it kind of annoyed me. And it kind of, and then I had, and I believe the word epiphany, Sean Preece, that is an actual word. Shaun (02:47.566) Ooh! Well done, I'll take your word for it. Hepifany, yes. Steven Scott (02:52.182) And you can get ointment for it as well. Yeah, I felt a little bit like I must have, the Android people must have felt when I go on about Android. Because I thought to myself, hang on a minute, these people are trying this out. They don't know what they're talking about. These people have no idea. They're going in there. They're using VO keys. They're mashing the keyboard. They don't know what they're doing. And suddenly they're saying, oh, this is a terrible experience. And actually, they just haven't given it the time. Shaun (03:02.566) You were. Shaun (03:07.294) taste of your own medicine. No, no. Steven Scott (03:17.09) They didn't start with it. They didn't start using Mac. So maybe they're used to Windows. They're used to the way of Windows. And now they're trying out Mac, and they're a little bit unsure. They're unsure of their footing. But they might not even stay with that particular operating system. But what they're doing is instead they're saying, oh, it's not a great experience. And that's fake news. So I am speaking up to the Android people today and saying, I am sorry for the things I've said, because I have said horrible things. about the Android people. And I want to apologize today. So I just, I want to put out there. I'm putting out, I'm putting goodness back into the ether. Yes. What? Shaun (03:47.582) Terrible terrible things Shaun (03:52.398) I don't know… stop it, are you? I'm not sure you are actually. I'm not sure how I feel about the sincerity of this apology. Well, I mean, basically you're saying stop attacking the Mac, Windows is terrible, aren't you? Is that what you're saying here? Well, it kind of sounds like it, Steven Scott. You're saying you feel like you're under attack, like you've been attacking the Androiders for so long. Steven Scott (04:02.326) How dare you? Steven Scott (04:09.752) I'm not saying that at all. I am absolutely not saying that. No, I'm not. I promise you I'm not. I am under attack. Yes, the Mac people are now under attack. Shaun (04:22.558) A Mac attack! Steven Scott (04:24.534) The Windows people are against the Mac people. The Mac people, the iPhone people, are against the Android people. And this is not working. Do you know what we need? We need unity to move forward. Yes, I'm calling for unity. Shaun (04:28.103) Ah! Shaun (04:34.106) Stephen Scott. Isn't it funny though that we always have this no matter what it is in tech, well actually in anything, I think it's the human nature aspect here, but we've had it forever. Super Nintendo versus Genesis, Atari versus Amiga, Commodore 64 versus, well yes of course. Steven Scott (04:55.389) Yes. Don't start me on that one. Atari always wins. Shaun (05:00.122) Atari ST, yeah, I knew you'd be one of those users. I was a meagre 500 all the way. But that is the point, because they always have these sides that are taken, these lines that are drawn when it comes to, specifically technology in this case. But when it comes down to it, it is a bit of a nonsense, right? Because each one has its pros and cons. When it comes to Mac, when it comes to Windows, Android, iPhone, and how many times, even though you have apologized, but to be fair. Steven Scott (05:02.446) Mm-hmm. Steven Scott (05:19.489) it is. Shaun (05:29.998) I mean, we do have that joke about Android users and iPhone users. We have these little throw little rocks at each other. But the fact of the matter is. Don't repeat it. Steven Scott (05:37.45) I mean, I might have said things in the past like, you know, I mean, I tried an Android phone once. I was utterly frustrated. Now I know why they're all so unhappy. I may have said that. I am apologizing. That's my point. I'm saying sorry for these things, you see. Shaun (05:50.706) Well, don't repeat what you just said then. Unbelievable. Let's leave it unsaid. The point... The point is though, we have come back when we're talking seriously about this stuff, we have said Android is perfectly usable out of the box for someone who's blind or visually impaired, talk back has matured. And of course we always say, whatever you start with, whatever you start your journey of tech with is what you feel more comfortable with. Same with Windows, same with Mac, Android and iPhone. So... Steven Scott (06:14.889) Mm-hmm. Shaun (06:20.506) The pros and cons of it, the bugs that are in this one versus that one, at the end of the day it all sort of balances out anyway and there's pros and cons to both. So I'd... Steven Scott (06:30.25) It is interesting though, because this whole thing came up because I've been seeing a lot of people on social media talking about trying out the Mac. Yeah, well, that's the obvious solution to everything in life, right? Just don't go on there. I mean, those videos are kind of cute. You just go in the next one, the next one, the next one, swipe, and sit there all night for seven hours watching absolute garbage. I know. Shaun (06:36.629) Mm. Stop going on social media. Shaun (06:48.694) before you know it you're 86 years old and you don't know where your life's gone. Yes, my mornings go like that. I will sit down for five minutes, open Facebook watch and before I know it it's three in the afternoon and I'm... Steven Scott (07:02.654) I know it is ridiculous. But here's the thing. I've been seeing people talking about the Mac. And it's interesting to see so many people who are now interested in trying it. And it kind of made me wonder, which is more my serious question of this conversation rather than the previous thing. No, I wasn't serious about it. Of course I'm not serious. Android people know I'm having a joke with them. And also, they know why. So I'm kind of intrigued to know what's going on with Windows. Because it feels to me as if there's, I'm not saying there's an exodus. There's not. Shaun (07:17.282) Oh, you weren't serious about your apology. Oh. Steven Scott (07:32.726) But there does seem to be a lot of people who are keen to try out the Mac. And rightly, some people are saying, that's not for me. And you've got to try it to know, right? You've got to try it. No one's saying you shouldn't talk about your experiences. I'm joking about all that. But I am intrigued to know why so many people are keen to try out the Mac. And we've had some interesting responses in social media, people saying, well, Windows, a lot of updates coming that are breaking things or changing things, the file explorer's changing, the implementation of features, web view apps or web based apps are causing problems. There's lots of issues that seem to be arising. And I don't know if it's just a case of some people are just feeling the need for a change. It's time to move on, try something different. Maybe Mac isn't it. Maybe Windows is just needing. Well, I mean, actually, nobody talks about that. I'm sorry, but nobody ever talks about Chromebooks. And actually, the last time I tried a Chromebook, it was actually quite all right. But I well, no. Shaun (08:14.142) Chrome OS. That's the future, baby. Shaun (08:19.778) No. No they don't. Are you still using it? Yeah, okay, so let's put that where it is. Mm-hmm. Steven Scott (08:27.222) But I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why, because it's just not fully fledged enough for me. I can't, I mean, I know you can get some apps on there and stuff, but it's not gonna run a video editing program like I need, or it's gonna run an audio editor like I need. That's the problem with it. I'd always have to have something else. Shaun (08:43.204) You know we're going to get comments now below here saying, of course there's this so and so audio editor on Chrome OS, this is absolutely fantastic! Uhhh, stop. Steven Scott (08:45.834) Well, please, tell me. And is it fully accessible with the ChromeVox screen reader? If it is, then I'm interested. But I don't know if it is. No, I mean, I'm interested to look at it and say, oh, that's interesting, and then move on. Shaun (08:56.058) No you're not. Shaun (09:02.638) I'm not sure there is this exodus. I think it's a thing that comes around. It's like fashion or terrible haircuts like mullets. I think just it comes around. Yes, it comes around. People are suddenly all in on the Mac and then you just get bored of what you're using. I love the iPhone. I've been with the iPhone since the very beginning. Loved it. Got to about the iPhone 6S, got to the iPhone 7 and I thought, you know what, I'm bored with it. Steven Scott (09:11.159) like ours. Shaun (09:31.454) I am bored and I got a Pixel phone, used that for what, a year? And it was fine. Yeah, it was absolutely fine. Some cases it was a better experience. I really preferred the YouTube app on my Android phone then to the iPhone. But then, you know, a new iPhone came out, slightly different design. You know what? I'm going back. But... Steven Scott (09:36.438) That's right, yeah, you actually quite enjoyed that. Shaun (09:53.514) I think it is just a case of that. The grass is always greener on the other side. There's some Mac features which I think, oh man, I wish I had that. I wish I had rogue Amoeba software on Windows. I wish the audio system was as stable and as versatile on Windows as it is on the Mac. I wish I could use iMessage on Windows. There's so many times and likewise when you're over on the Mac side and you know there may be things in Windows you're looking at and you think yeah it's just seem a little bit easier. I don't like the interaction for example. I love the way that screen readers work on Windows. So I think it's swings and roundabouts. I'm not sure if there's any specific reason, you know, an update comes out unless it's terrible and totally kills accessibility. I'm thinking of Windows 8 when it was first released with Edge and accessibility was terrible. Unless there's something like that, I don't think there's necessarily that's the reason that people are going to jump ship. I think it's just curiosity. Tech curiosity. Steven Scott (10:50.306) So I'm going to stake my case here. This is what I think might be the reality of where we're at as a community. Okay, I'm just going to put this out there. You guys tell me what you think, but I'm intrigued about this because I feel the Mac offers a lot in terms of the ecosystem, the apps, as you talk about with the audio, the capability that it has, and that's something that I adore about the Mac. Of course you can replicate a lot of that with the PC, but you need external hardware to do it, whereas you can do everything pretty much. Shaun (10:53.377) Oh, yes. Steven Scott (11:20.246) with a Mac and if you were doing a podcast, for example, like this, or a video or whatever, you can connect a USB microphone directly to the Mac and you can control all of those inputs and outputs and audio sourcing and where it's going. And you can do all that from within software. You can't really do that with a Mac, not as easily, sorry, with Windows, not as easily anyway. But I think that the reality for me trying and certainly working with Windows for a long time and then having the Mac for such a long time. I kind of want all the functionality and features of a Mac, but I want it with the solidity and the foundation of Windows. Does that make sense? Shaun (11:57.21) It makes total sense. Yeah, I feel the same way. I think the Mac is incredibly flexible. And when I'm using it, I think this just feels really, shall I use the word slick and sexy? But it does. It feels really nice to use and really responsive in some cases when you're not getting not responding, but it does feel responsive and really cool. But then. when I'm trying to navigate around the system, I struggle. I find it hard work. I cannot get my head around things like Finder. And I find it feels like I'm a layer away from the operating system when I'm using a screen reader on Mac. Now again, this could all come down to the comfort factor. You know, if I... Steven Scott (12:40.022) No, I don't think it is. I actually don't think it is. And look, I'm a Mac fan, but I'm the first to admit that for anybody who comes to it, it is like Bambi on ice in comparison to using a Windows machine where you feel, you know where you are. You know, when you go to something, when you arrow to something, when you tap to something, you know where you are and you tab or shift tab back or you move inside an application, you move to somewhere else. You know where you are on a Mac. Shaun (12:43.739) Yes. Shaun (13:01.051) Yes. Steven Scott (13:08.906) I'm never entirely convinced where my focus is. Hence the Bamboo and Ice thing, right? Or watching an octopus on hookah bra. I mean, whatever image you want to conjure up in your head. Shaun (13:13.186) I agree. Yeah. Hour up, hour down. Shaun (13:21.314) I don't want that image. No, I agree. But then with that being said, recently I'm reminded of your discovery of window spots and how that made a big difference. I mean, it's... Steven Scott (13:31.949) Hmm. Steven Scott (13:35.082) It's just getting the grip. It feels like you're getting the grip on the wheel a little bit more with that kind of thing. Shaun (13:39.318) Yes, yeah exactly, but I mean it's so deep voiceover on the Mac, it's so customisable. Again, akin to Android really, it's so customisable that sometimes you need to dig into it a little bit to get the best out of it. Steven Scott (13:54.718) And that's the second part of this. In terms of phones, I think the best phone experience would be all the functionality and customization that you get on Android and all the experience you get on Android and the fact that you get so many different devices you can choose from, but with the bedrock of Apple iPhone and accessibility. Do you know what I mean? So again, it's the same issue the other way around on the Android versus. Shaun (14:17.738) Ah, but what? No, no, no. What specifically? Steven Scott (14:23.538) iPhone thing for me. It's always the other way around, which is, you know, I still feel with the Android phone for me, you know, I can swipe around, but I don't feel I'm exactly in control of where I am or know exactly where I am. Whereas, and I'm not saying it's perfect on iPhone because trust me, it's not. I know it's not. But it's just, again, a little bit more like you've got hands on the wheel, which is weird, right? Because you'd think that the iPhone and the Mac would be the same, but they're not. It's the opposite with the Mac. Shaun (14:32.112) Yes. Shaun (14:41.65) The opposite. Shaun (14:46.734) I've used mainly Pixel phones and Samsung Galaxy phones. And even with the one I'm using, or have been using, I think it's an S21, 22, when I unlock the phone and enter in the pin, it's hit and miss. I'm moving my finger around and sometimes it will read the number under my finger, sometimes it won't. And I think it's that sort of... What word do I want? Unresponsiveness, sloppiness. And inconsistency is even better. Yes, no inconsistencies that make you go, it's just that splits. I mean, you don't lift your finger off, put your finger back down again and it seems to sort itself out. But it's those little things that you kind of think, ah, yeah, this is annoying me. And it does seem like Apple has that polish, at least just on gesture capture. It just seems to have that extra polish which makes a difference. Steven Scott (15:16.586) Inconsistency? I mean, all those things, isn't it? Steven Scott (15:42.122) And I think that's the bit that annoys people, because if you're an iPhone user and you've been using Windows for years, you've kind of, I think, are the best of both worlds. I really do. I think with Windows, you've got a great experience with a screen reader, you know, JAWS, NVDA, even the Rater today is getting up there. I mean, it's not maybe as good as NVDA and JAWS are, but it's, or at least it's not as functional, perhaps. Maybe that's a better way to put it. But you would imagine that if you were moving, it just seems logical, doesn't it? If you have an iPhone, you think, this experience is actually quite good. I'm okay with this. I'm happy with this. I'll get a Mac and I'll get exactly the same experience. And then you get it and you go, no. And that's, I think, because ultimately, voiceover on the Mac came first and they completely redesigned it for iPhone. And it's just been a different experience since then on. And I do think Apple's voiceover lags behind. It lags behind development. Shaun (16:18.078) and he don't. Steven Scott (16:34.422) And I think that's partly because of the fact that it's, as we've said before on our show, that it's not detached from the operating system and the way that, for example, Top Back is on Android. And equally the same for screen readers on Windows, right? You've got NVDA, I mean, the Raiders is definitely baked in, but with Windows, of course, they can update individually to that particular feature if they need to. They can reach in, so just update that one thing. So, Shaun (16:46.194) Yeah. Shaun (16:59.922) That's right. Steven Scott (17:03.894) The Mac, unfortunately, is all or nothing. There's no way to just update. So you have to wait for a big update or any update, frankly, to come through the Mac. And that will hopefully resolve issues. But of course, then it can often break more issues or create more issues. And you end up having to wait again. And that, I think, is the frustration in the Apple community. I think the solution for Apple on the Mac is, and for the iPhone as well, actually, is to detach voiceover from. Shaun (17:16.791) Yes. Steven Scott (17:30.914) the main operating system and allow it to be either an app that is installable from the store or is something that is just has its own update path. I think that would actually really help. And I think that's actually important. I think that's important when it comes to accessibility because if your phone stops working or your computer just stops working, I can't be hanging around for six months. You know, and that would drive people away to Android, to Windows, and rightly so. Shaun (17:42.391) I agree. Shaun (17:56.75) Yeah, no, I agree. Steven Scott (17:59.082) Anyway, I just thought I'd bring that up today. Shaun (18:01.038) Wow, that was an unexpected episode, Stephen Scott, I must say. Steven Scott (18:05.962) Yeah, I hear that a lot. Thank you. As always, keep in touch. Drop your comments below. And of course, email us feedback at doubletaponair.com. And we'll catch you again for another Double Tap on YouTube soon. Thanks, Sean. Shaun (18:08.839) Ha ha! Shaun (18:18.694) Thank you, bye bye.