- Hey guys, it's another Double Tap on YouTube. I'm Steven Scott, and today here on the show, we are giving you a chance to hear another interview from the Zero Project Conference in Vienna. And I get the chance, along with Sean Priest, to talk to Shani Dhanda, who's just been named the UK's Most Influential Disabled Person. - I'm Shani Dhanda, and I'm a proud Brome. I live in London, and I am a consultant, so I work with lots of different businesses and brands on all things to do with disability, inclusion, and accessibility, but I also wear some other hats as well. So I'm a broadcaster, I'm now an author, and I'm also a social entrepreneur. - So how do you have time to do anything else? - I'm very sleep deprived and don't really have much of a social life and work a lot. - Yeah, you've been doin' so much, and I also just wanna congratulate you, UK's Most Influential Disabled Person 2023. Goodness me, that's impressive. - It's a big title, isn't it? - It is. - [Shani] Scary. - It is quite scary, isn't it? - [Shani] Yeah, it is. - What was that like getting that accolade? - I was really surprised. I wasn't expecting it, and I don't think people believe me when I say it, but I really wasn't. And I was quite lost for words for the first time ever. And I think, I think when you get recognition from within your own community, it means so much more, because you're amongst people who really understand your experiences and get what it means. And when we do this work of inclusion and activism or advocacy, we're not doing it for awards are we? So the fact that someone has recognized me in this way, it just feels amazin'. Yeah, it's lovely. - It must be amazing, the Shaw Trust, of course, was behind that and a fantastic organization. Lots of great names on there, great company. - Amazing, amazing. And what I really love is the longer the Power 100 is running, the more categories there are, the more diverse it is, and it's just an amazing way to spotlight the incredible talent that exists within the community. - Yeah, now obviously, all of your work is focused in the UK, right? You're doing a lot of UK work. What do you therefore get out of the Zero Project Conference? - Oh, so I do have some clients that I work with internationally, some in US. I recently did some work with Target and then the Four Seasons in Canada, so I'm gettin' out there now, so, yeah, but no, I love The Zero Project. It really just feels like coming home. It feels like community, it's a safe space, and every year I come and make amazing connections. I just feel like it's a really safe space, and obviously, there's what, over 100 countries being represented. I don't think there's anywhere else or an event like it, where I can meet so many of the people from around the world working on the same things that I am, and we get to exchange knowledge and learn from one another. It's a melting pot of everything you would want. - Yeah, it's interesting you say that. With your many hats that you wear, you must go to so many different events and conferences and get togethers. There does seem something special about this one, doesn't there? - Yeah, and I think that's it. Obviously, the fact that it's really diverse, so many people make an effort to come, present. I love hearing about all the awardees and the fact that we just get to chat, whether it's about work or not. And many of the people here are my colleagues, but we never get to have this time together. We might see each other in a meetin' or at an event, and it's a quick hi and bye, in and out. We never really get the quality time that we get here at Zero Project. - And disabled people are here. - [Shani] Yes. - I think that's, I mean, I know I say this, and I've said it a few times here, and I kind of get mixed reactions of, "Well, of course," right. But actually, you and I have probably been to a lot of different events over the years, where lots of well-meaning people doing great work for disabled people, but that key word for not with, that's quite endemic at the moment in our community, interestingly. And that doesn't feel the case here. - Yeah, it really does feel like it's in collaboration with disabled people, and rightly so, and I do think that, well, I've only been coming the last three years. I know there's so many people that have been coming a lot longer, but the three years that I've been coming, I've only seen it improve and get better. Like, nobody's perfect, yeah, there's loads of ways to improve, but I've seen way more inclusivity and accessibility the more I've been coming, and I hope it continues. - One of the things we've been asking all the people who come here is what's the state of disability essentially in their respective country? So, tell us. - Well, how long have we got? - [Steven?] I know, I know, where do we begin with the UK, right? So talk us through. - Yeah, it's a really tough time to be a disabled person in the UK. It's a very hostile environment. It's a very hostile time, and we just seem to get the blame for everything. There's a really worrying narrative coming from central government, I feel, and we recently have seen the National Disability Action Plan, some commitments that have just been launched. And I read them and. - And this is from the government, right? - This is from the government, yeah, in consultation with disabled people apparently, and they just feel really empty. And it's all well and good having commitments. There's nothing about how they are gonna be achieved or with who, so I just felt like it lacked a lot of clarity. And we were waiting for this for a really long time, and I personally, I just don't feel it had the intended impact, just felt a bit tokenistic. Also, we're still living in a cost of living crisis, and very worryingly for a long time, we've talked about disability in relation to poverty. We're now talking about it in relation to destitution, which is even worse than poverty. There's still huge unemployment rates. All those persisting barriers and stigmas are still very much there, and sadly, it just feels like it's going backwards. And the more and more I travel and the more and more I work in different countries, I feel that I experience disability a lot less in other countries than compared to the one that I live in. - Wow. - Really, that's very interestin'. - [Shani] Yeah. - Can you give any sort of examples of why you feel that? - Absolutely, so I went to New York last May, and I took my manual wheelchair, and I was able to use pretty much all the subways I needed to catch. Most of the stations were accessible. I know they're not all, but a good selection of them were, whereas in the UK, only a quarter of the tube stations are accessible, which means I have to spend loads of monies, loads of money getting around in taxis. - A quarter? - Yeah. - Whoo. - Yeah. - I didn't realize it was as few as that. - Yeah, that's just one example, and also, in America, it's important to note, that people do act out of compliance, out of fear of not wanting to be sued, because it is very easy to hold people to account in the US in comparison to the UK. We as disabled people are quite disenfranchised from doing that. It's very expensive and very difficult to prove, and not that we should have to go around doing that for our rights to be met, but sadly, that's the case. I also spend some time in the UAE in Dubai, and again, I find it a really accessible place to be. I really. - And what about attitudes there? I mean, do you find attitudes are different as well? - Yeah, the really interesting thing about the UAE is, again, it's a real melting pot of people. Emiratis only make up about 20% of the population. Everyone is from the rest of the world, so it makes it a really diverse place to be. Attitudes are more progressive than I thought they would be, and that says a lot, I think, to the perception that we have towards countries in the Middle East. But Dubai is only 50 something years old, officially, and I feel like it's much more inclusive and accessible than living in London where I live. And I think there's a lot to be said for that as well, and yet in one sense it could be easier for them because they don't have old buildings and you know how we have listed things. And that, yes, that is one argument, but it's still the investment that they're making because they want to make it the most accessible tourist destination. And, I think they're already there. I think they're on track. - I find it fascinating you think that way. I wonder sometimes is it fatigue in your own country, because, of course, when you're at home, you're fighting all the time, right. You're fighting to be heard, fighting for rights. You maybe don't get the chance to stop and look at it in the way that, for example, you would in another country like America. - That's such a good point, but I also reflect on the fact that the UK is one of the richest countries in the world. We can and should be doing so much more, and it just seems like if anything positive or progressive happens, it's because something really bad happened or it's off the back of being reactive. Very quickly, I also went to the Philippines last year, and on their national news, they had a sign language interpreter. We didn't even have a BSL interpreter for our Covid updates every day. So I do see really good practice from other countries, and I just think, yeah, it isn't difficult, it's just that I don't think people care enough. - Yeah, well like you mentioned with the cost of living crisis that's going on worldwide, but especially in the UK at the minute, people are looking for, I don't know, fingers to point, I suppose, people to blame, and it's usually the minorities or certain demographic that gets, "It's their fault, "that's why we're in this mess." But how do we fight against that? What's the best way? Are we talking, like sight loss organizations, in our case, in our community, me and Steven, is that the way to go? Should they be doing more or is it down to the individual, or how do we change the tide on that? - Oh, it's a good question, and in some respects, sometimes I feel like we can't, because that rhetoric is so much louder and bigger than our voices as a community. And that makes me sad, but, of course, there are things that we can do, yes, absolutely should be. The awareness should be raised from the organizations that represent us and that we work with in the disability community, whether they're charities, whether they're disability led organizations, DPOs. But yeah, like I always try and share a lot of my reality and lived experience, as someone who's worked since the age of 16, but wasn't very welcomed into the world of work, had to apply for over 100 jobs and only got a job after removing any mention of my condition. So I think it's also about storytelling and telling people how it really is, but then again, we don't always get the platform and the opportunity to do that, which why I think social media's a great vehicle because there's no gatekeepers. You don't have to tell some, there's no one saying, "Oh no, yeah, yeah, we want you or we don't want you." It's available to pretty much most people. And yeah, I get it's not accessible for everybody, but it's still a way for people to make their own space in the world and do things on their terms. And I think there's a lot of power in that. - And, of course, one of the biggest challenges is there just are not enough of us out there talking. Now you talk a lot. - [Shani] But also, should we have to? - Well that's another, that's a very important question, why do we always have to stand up and fight, right? But you do talk, you do go on TV shows, yeah, absolutely, and it's great because you go on, you go on mainstream, regular TV shows in the UK, like "Good Morning Britain" and "This Morning" and all those big TV shows that are watched by millions of people even today. And you said once a really interesting thought that you had was that you were the acceptable face of disability, what do you mean by that? - I mean that because I'm a very palatable, disabled person, so I have a short stature, but I'm able to communicate without any barriers. People are able to communicate with me without any barriers. If I need adjustments, it might be physical, but quite a light touch approach. So in that respect, from a non-disabled person's perspective, I'm easy to deal with, and they don't have to do too much for me in order for me to have that opportunity. And that's just the truth, that's just the truth of the matter. It's not fair, and it's not right, but a lot of people only are gonna do what's easy, or especially, if you think about the industry of broadcasting. There's a lot of risk, people don't work with people, if they think they won't do a good job because they're gonna get in trouble, as the commissioning editor or the producer. And there's also been lots of occasions, where I've been told I'm not the right fit, or I've been told that, "Oh, we've already got a disabled person," or "We've already got." - [Steven] Oh, I love that one, yeah, yeah. We did disability last week. - Yeah, yeah, and I also don't think that, of course, everything I wanna do, I should get, because who gets to be in these positions is very subjective. It depends what the show is looking for or whose voice is missing and so many other narratives. So I try and not take it personally, but sometimes I can't help but think, I wonder why? - We've got an election coming up in the UK. There's lots of talk of a change of government. Would that be good or better for disabled people, if there was a change of government at the top, at number 10? - This is so interestin'. I'm gonna answer this by bringing in something else. So. - And just for context, 'cause obviously, international audience here, so we're talkin' to people all around the world, who may not fully understand the intrinsic issues that we face in the UK. - Yeah, so we currently have a conservative government and since they've been in power for the last? - [Steven] Forever, no, 13, 12 years. - 13 years, yeah. We've lived in a lot of austerity, a lot of cuts, a lot of, yeah, a lot of cuts to a lot of essential services, and it has disproportionately affected disabled people. In addition to that, another thing that compounds that, is the redesigning of the whole welfare system, which means that the assessments aren't fit for purpose. There are so many disabled people that do need support and aren't getting it. So I was recently reflecting on the fact that when I was, when I got my diagnosis at two years old for my condition, it was a conservative government, and I went to a special needs primary school, and I said to my mom, "Did you have to fight for that?" Like back then, you were statemented, you had a statement of needs as a disabled person from your local council that then got you access to things, like accessing disability benefits, getting your place in special needs primary school, helping you to get a blue badge. And my mom said, "No, it was really easy." And I looked at who the government was, and it was a conservative government. And I thought, oh, that's interestin'. I didn't think it would be, and now, we have a conservative government, but all of those things that I mentioned, people are havin' to go to court for to get access to. And the provision for children, who have additional needs or different needs, has been cut massively. So I think it's very simplistic for me to say, "Yeah, things will be better with a different government," but they might not be. I think it really comes down to their priorities, if they care about the lives of disabled people. And yeah, and the people that run, that are in power, think it's more about the people in the party now. - [Steven] You've got a book out. - I have. - Tell us about it. - So, I was approached by HarperCollins, a publisher, to write a children's book. When they approached me, I had massive Imposter Syndrome. I didn't know if I had it in me. Like I don't know how to write for a 6-year-old, but I did it. My book's called "No Horn Unicorn," and it's a story that's rooted in the social model of disability. And essentially, I've written the story that I needed to read as a young disabled girl, because ironically, I went to a special needs primary school, but not one story did I read was there a disabled character or disabled storyline or anything to do with sort of diverse representation. So my unicorn was born without a horn, and he goes on this amazing adventure with his friends, and they end up in a place of it's absolutely okay to accept and rock your difference, not only in yourself, but in others too. - That sounds brilliant, that's fantastic. Shani, thank you so much for coming back on to the show today and best of luck with the book. - [Shani] Thank you. - And best of luck with what you do. - Thank you so much. - [Marc] Thank you. - Thanks. - There you go, that's more from the Zero Project conference in Vienna. We will continue our coverage here on YouTube and on the Double Tap Show, every single day on AMI audio and podcast. Check us out wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll catch you again soon back here on YouTube.