- Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to "Double Tap" on YouTube. I'm Steven Scott, he's Shaun Preece. Hello. - Hello. Hello, how's everyone doing? Have we gone viral yet, Steven? - Well, I do have a bit of a rash. But, hopefully it will clear up soon. I have got ointment for it. So, we should be fine. - That's sick. - Well, hang on...Do you mean YouTube? - Of course I mean that there YouTube. - Oh, I see. Well, look the first video must of been okay, because we're back again, right? So, it couldn't of been that bad. - Yes. We're not canceled yet, we're back. What are we talking about today? - Well, this is a subject that's a little bit close to my heart, shall we say. - Deep, I like it. - Well look, I have to say, how do you feel about sighted people experimenting with what it's like to be blind? Have you heard about this? - Well, I've seen it on a few occasions. And you know, I understand the curiosity, absolutely. - No, this isn't for fun. People aren't going out and wearing dark glasses, or just putting a blindfold on and heading out into traffic. I mean, that's not advisable. And it's not what people are actually doing. - Please don't do that. - No, don't. And that's not happening. - Please. But Steven, we need to be responsible here. Please don't do that. - That's never gonna happen. I promise you. - Thank you. - But here's the thing, that's your job. You can do all that really. Because it keeps the lawyers awake. All right, so just rest. At least, Steve, you watch this. - So, a few more views? - Exactly. - Hello, lawyers. So, carry on. - Um no, what happens is, sometimes in offices, sometimes in environments, sometimes with courses. There are, what's called visual impairment awareness courses that happen. Different parts of the world this can be called different things. But ultimately what happens is, sighted people are brought into the room. And they're given what's called simulation glasses, or Sim Specs, as they also can be called. And what they do is, they simulate what it's like to have different eye conditions. Now, you're got- - RP, retinitis pigmentosa. - Okay, so you could have a pair of glasses that would replicate the various stages of RP, because of course, it's a condition that deteriorates over time. So, you may have... Sorry, I didn't mean to break that to you. Is there something, you're not aware of this? - Unbelievable- - Oh so, there you go. - Yes, quite right. - Breaking news. - Thank you. - But here's the thing, on this particular case you would have maybe a pair of glasses which show what it's like in the beginning, maybe when you're younger, and then as you get older how that condition progresses. Now, with that in mind, you're then giving someone the opportunity to experience that. I don't know, I just initially, I got an issue with that. Because I think to myself, I really like the idea of people blinding up. - Oh, blinding up, I see where you're going with that. I don't know, you can understand the curiosity around a disability, can't you? Surely. I mean even, the many times I've seen it used are with other members of officially impaired person's families. So, they can get an idea. Particularly if you've got a child who's visually impaired. So you can get an idea of exactly the needs that they may need met, when it comes to print size, magnification, or even mobility with a cane, whatever it may be. But I can totally understand how someone would be, because it's almost the shock value of how do you cope if you can't see? You know the people always try and look at as that is the worse case scenario almost, right? - Yeah, and I think that's the point. And again, I wanna make it clear on this. 'Cause although us, here we are fun and carry about these things. I think the truth is, I don't see any malice in this. I think this is all about education, and I think that's good. But I think the question here is, is this the right way to educate people? Is this really the right way to educate people about what our lives are like? - What else would you do? How else would you do it? - Well, this is where a video that came from YouTube got me interested. So, a good friend of ours, James Rath, he's known as the blind filmmaker. And he's on social media, he's on YouTube. And he's legally blind, he lives in the States. And James, as he's been on our show, he's been on "Double Tap," he's been on "Access State Life," formally "Double Tap TV," a few times with us. And, he did a video recently with, it's well-known on YouTube call "iJustine." And he showed her what it was like, as he saw it, as he sees, essentially, using these kind of stimulation glasses. But, he did something different in this video, which I don't think I've seen before. Let's watch the video, and we'll talk on the other side of this. - I was born with blindness, and You Tuber, iJustine is going to experience what my eyes see, while using her iPhone. Thanks to accessibility settings found in our phones, computers and more, us blind folks can interact with our devices like anyone else in a variety of ways. - It's like I'm already feeling like the eye fatigue of just the strain of trying to focus. - [Narrator] Sometimes, all you just need to do is zoom into the display to the bring the operating system into focus. - I mean, it's wild. Because seeing you do that without the goggles on, I mean, it just looked like everything was enlarged. And now I can actually see like the apps. I can almost even read the text. And, it feels pretty intuitive. - Definitely maybe an eye-opening experience. - I see what you did there. iJustine. - So kind of a simple video. And, it's one of those YouTube shorts. So, a lot of information packed and very tightly into that minute. But, what he did there was quite interesting because he showed Justine how to use the iPhone, whilst, wearing the simulation glasses. Now, why is that transformative? Why is that interesting to me? Why is that more appealing to me in the ways that I've seen it done before. Because the ways that I've seen done before, is they ask someone to put these glasses on, like the RP glasses, or any other kind, glaucoma, or AIDS related macular degeneration. Whatever it is. The last people to put those glasses on, and then they'll ask them to do a task, which often they fail at. Okay, so they might ask you to make a cup of tea. Or, they might ask you to- - I see where you're coming from... - To do something, which essentially leads to a challenge that maybe they can't do. And the ways to kind of show you, I mean the purpose of it is to show you the challenge, so you realize that you end up overfilling your cup, and you need to use a liquid level indicator to do it properly. All of that, right? And then, you learn the solution. But the problem is, that first moment sticks with people. That first, "Oh my God, I just spilled water everywhere." That's the bit that's stuck. And most people- - It's frightening. - Yeah, and I think a lot of people leave these sessions feeling dejected. Feeling this is something that's a negative. Now look, I'm not getting into the whole is blindness a negative, or not. That's another conversation for another day. But what I do think is interesting here, is if people are leaving with a negative experience, can we turn that somehow into a positive? And I think what James Raft has done here with iJustine, points towards a solution. And it's technology again, that comes as the savior. And that is the technology, because we can, we all know our technology. Justine certainly knows our technology, right? She knows it inside out. - Absolutely. - So, she can take that device, she knows roughly how to use it. But even without vision, she would have a sense of what she's look at. She can put those glasses on, she might not be able to see the screen, but she's able to then listen to the voice, use voiceover, experience what it's like to use a phone without sight. And as you heard, she's able to take a picture. She had a lot of success. And I think that is possibly more powerful. And a more powerful way. If you really want to show people what it's like to be blind, I think you've got to show a positive outcome. You've got to show something which tells the person. And at the very least, that this isn't the worse possible thing to happen to you; now look, I know blindness is challenging. I'm not sitting here saying it's anything else. I know- - It's easy. It's easy, apparently. - Oh yes, great fun. I love it, best thing ever. And the thing is, the problem with charities. Because charities around the world will often have two stories. You know, to the blind people it's, "We wanna be here for you, "because we know it's challenging." To the outside world, "Everything's great, "if you just give us money." And that's the dilemma of charities out there. They're trying to promote that. But I think the problem here is that we're often left with a sense, publicly, a sense of negativity that's fostered, and continues to be fostered over time. Can technology solve that? No, in and out of itself, no. But with that example, what it shows is that someone like James can sit down with someone like Justine, who's probably never experienced voiceover, and have a chance to try it. Whilst, at the same time experimenting and understanding a little bit more about what James' vision is like. Now she will never come away, no one will come away, really knowing what eye experience is like. But what she might come away with is, "Well, do you know what? "This might be challenging, and it certainly is. "But, at least technology works for me." That's my take. - Hm, that's an interesting take as well. I did wonder where you were going with this, I will be honest, but I get it, I totally get. And I think there's one factor in James' and iJustine's video there. That it's key to all these experiences. These...Hey, do you know what it's like if you've got less vision, or officially impaired. And that is, the blind person in the room. - Yes. - That's the difference. - Yes! - Because- - I didn't think about that, yeah. That's right. The fact that James is living that life, is visually impaired. It's a huge difference, because you do know, okay. This is, yes, there's challenges. But you know what? You've learned to overcome them. Or, there's this technology in place. This accessibility feature there that means I can use a smartphone. And everything like that. I think you're absolutely right. There is a danger here, that, and I think it links in with the charity aspect. Because I'll be honest with you. I kind of understand the challenge that charities have got. Because on one hand, isn't this almost a pity? Isn't this sad? You know, they've got to bring people in to get, to monetize it almost, to get funds in. - Of course. - In order to put services in place. So on one hand, we're playing this "We need help" card. And on the other hand, this "Hey, even if you're blind, "you can be perfectly independent." There's challenges, but you can work past them. There is life when you're visually impaired. That is absolutely fine. So it is a balancing act. But I think when it comes to something like this, it's very interesting, the point that you bring up there. But, could it be just too negative? Because for someone who's 20/20 vision, fully-sighted, putting on some of these Sim Specs, it could be frightening. And that alone could be enough to, okay, visual impairment is just a terrifying experience. And in the case of, depending if we're talking corporate here, and on some sort of course. It could give across the attitude that you know what? Visually impaired people really aren't capable to do certain things. When in reality, I'm perfectly capable of using a computer, a smart phone, or whatever. Or, doing lots of jobs. Whereas, the general mainstream perception may be, "How can a blind person do that?" So I think that the key points to all of this is, as a lot of things we talk about, is actually the conversation where we're having the visually impaired person actually involved in the first place. - Yeah, if you watch these videos and you listen to our show often enough, you will learn very quickly that we're not shy to bring up topics that other people might not. And the reason for that is because, what we're about here at "Double Tap," is, this is our lives. This is Shaun and I talking about our experiences, our lives. We're not giving you any kind of dictate here. This is not a case of "Well, this is what we should do." This is a conversation that we want you to get involved in. Because I wanna know your take on all this as well. This isn't just about our views. But this is coming from us, okay? And, it's important to understand that. Because, as you just said Shaun, often times when people are doing these kind of courses, there's no blind people around. There's no one around. - No, that's right. - Or, and I've actually been to one of these, I was actually in one, where they asked me to wear the glasses. And the argument was made, "Well, maybe it would help you understand." And I'm like "Well, the problem," I mean, there's an obviously problem right there. - Which is- - Double problem. - It's not gonna do anything for me, right? Right? It's just gonna make- - Yes. - If you take a black spot and stick it over a black spot, nothing's gonna change. - Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm always, I'll be honest. I'm not 100% convinced that these Sim Specs are an accurate simulation. How do you know? - Exactly. How do we know? But, interestingly- - I can describe it. - The one that iJustine was wearing, was I think something that was more technical than that. And I should be interested to know more about that technology, as well. Because this was essentially a pair of almost VR google-type headset she was wearing. - Right, yes. - She was putting the different images in front. And that's something I'm seeing more and more of. In fact, there's a lot of work going into this. Not just for vision rehab. But also for dementia. There's a lot of work into sort of dementia, as well. And the experience some of may have with dementia. I think that there's that danger. And I said earlier, "Blinding up." Not to get too controversial here. But you know if I was to do other things, let's just say, to replicate another ethnicity, or another gender, I think other people might consider that offensive. And I suppose my question is, overall, is this just a little bit offensive? Or, is there a better purpose to it? But then I often say, and now I have said this many times in my show. And I think it's an important perspective to leave us on today. Which is, if I take the word blind out of any sentence, and replace it with the word Black, or woman. And then I replay that sentence back to myself, it doesn't seem appropriate. So, your thoughts, please? I'd love them, comment below. And of course, you can email us on the show, as well. Feedback@doubletaponair.com We always try to bring you an interesting discussion and interesting perspectives, we'd love to hear yours, as well. For now, that's it for today. Thank you, Shaun. - Thank you. Bye-bye YouTube. - Bye-bye YouTube. And thank you, and don't forget you can do all likey, subscribee things as well. Hit your bell. - If, and don't forget to watch James' and iJustine's video, as well. Very good. - Yeah, go check them out. "Blind Filmmaker" at "iJustine Online."